Snape is not Brave

[hobgoblinn]

Note: X posted to spoil_me_dh

Wait! Hold your fire! Before you flame me, let me explain. IF we are reasoning Only on the evidence of DH prior to the epilogue and JKR's recent comments, he can't be.

It would seem from the evidence, that JKR wants us to read Snape as brave, if "horrible". Harry says it, after all, in the epilogue. But why? Because he's willing to face death, and ultimately dies? She seems to think this about Harry, too-- his willingness to die is even more poignant than Snape's, and he has to walk to his death, not unlike Christ to the cross.

But willingness to die is not necessarily brave. Having faced something like it in my own life, I must tell you that it's easy. Why? You know if you can just hold on a bit longer, that it will soon be Over. Even if we take bravery as doing something in spite of your fear, if that something is dying, or doing something else that has an ending to it, hanging on with dignity through that fear is not necessarily the mark of a brave man. It might be the mark of a man who has an unusual ability to tolerate suffering and persevere in spite of it, which is not at all the same thing.

For facing death or fear to be bravery per se, it seems to me that one must have some kind of choice in the matter. And this is where I part company with JKR and book 7. In the previous 6 books, we get hints that Snape does have, and has in fact made, a choice to do good, to protect the son of his enemy (and his unrequited love), at great personal cost. If he's doing this, as Book 7 seems to indicate, from some kind of creepy stalker unrequited obsession (JKR's characterization here makes me wonder if she thinks Snape was in fact capable of Love) or worse yet, from guilt, This Is Not Bravery.

Which is why, again, I have to part company with this part of an otherwise wonderful saga. Until the last book, the message seems to be that people are not always what they seem, that choices and actions matter more than innate abilities or personality quirks, that handsome people are not necessarily good, and ugly ones are not necessarily bad. For some reason I cannot begin to fathom, all this is thrown out the window in Book 7, and even Harry's ultimate triumph has a great deal less impact, because we find he really never is at all tempted by the darkness-- he never changes. This idea is laid out more fully in the recent Christian Science Monitor review.

What I was expecting, and what would have made a much more compelling and consistent story, would have been for Harry, struggling with the temptation to darkness, to be aided by the only other character to have faced that kind of darkness-- Snape. And I think the bitterness and rage in Snape, while not making him any the less brave or noble, should have been the thing that Harry helps Snape have the courage to let go of. Dumbledore, meddler that he is, becomes a whole lot less culpable using the two of them, if he had, as it seemed from earlier books, some aim of putting these two together to ultimately redeem each other. To grow in understanding and wisdom.

Which is why I say, thank Merlin for Fan Fiction. I already know a number of stories where just this kind of transformation and redemption occurs, but if anyone has others they'd like to share, I would be quite grateful for recommendations and links.

Okay, now I'll get out my asbestos robes.

Hob

Comments

[rainne]

If he's doing this, as Book 7 seems to indicate, from some kind of creepy stalker unrequited obsession

Exactly. I've said this before and I will say it again: Snape = Spike. NOT, in fact, redeemed. NOT, in fact, "good", but simply doing what he does in the hopes of somehow impressing Lily/Buffy, who is not actually interested in that way, due to his own actions.

[suzuran-lily.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely. I don't understand the whole "Snape is a hero!" argument . . . he died pointlessly, he died unredeemed, loving Harry's mother doesn't make it any better. :/

[vtgirl1993.livejournal.com]

Good argument. I don't necessarily agree, but I can understand what you're saying.

Could you send me links or names for the fanfic stories you mentioned? Thanks.

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

Don't have time at the moment, but I've posted some on my journal recently-- feel free to rifle back through there. I don't post every minute of every day, so it should be easy to find.

Thanks.

[vtgirl1993.livejournal.com]

Great. Thank you.

[snapeskin.livejournal.com]

I agree, and I had hoped for that sort of ending too. It would have made far more sense.

[tinheart.livejournal.com]

Wow, you make a host of damn good points.

[rainne]

Your icon owns me. Srsly.

[mighty-mu-mu.livejournal.com]

Hmm! That makes sense...but I kinda forgot...why would someone's Patronus change to someone else's? That would be my argument if I remembered right now.

But, yeah, I do wish there was more to Harry being tempted by evil or something like that. Supposedly Jo wanted to keep the entire thing about Snape for the end. (I do remember reading the book and wondering when he would appear and when we'd finally figure out his allegiance officiallyXD)

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure his Patronus "changed"-- where are we told it was ever something different? I suspect his only happy memory, ever, was his friendship with Lily as a child, and that affected his patronus somewhat.

I see it more as a plot device, though-- you're meant to think Harry's mother is somehow helping him in the wood, and then later, it's revealed that Snape's patronus is the doe. It logically makes no sense that Snape's would be that even if he knew what Lily's had been. I also find it hard to believe Snape has enough happy memories in him to produce a Patronus at all.

[ginevra007.livejournal.com]

Though you make some good points, I disagree that Snape is not brave. It takes a lot of bravery to change no matter what the reason. Lily's death opened his eyes to what he had become. He could have broken down and done nothing, left the DE's and been killed by his former 'friends.' Instead, he chooses to live and work with people who still despise and mistrust him(accept for Dumbledore)for a greater good. What ever his motivation. He was also brave by being a double agent, Dumbledore's man. He was willing to do whatever it took to see Dumbledore's plans out, even killing the man. As you say he had seen the darkness and lived through it, THAT in my book, makes him very brave. If you have ever known someone who was an alcoholic or drug abuser, it takes a lot of courage/bravery to face that and over come it. In some ways, at least to me, Snape went though that.

Hero, maybe not, but certainly brave.

I DO agree that i would have liked to see Snape and Harry come to some understanding/closer. "What I was expecting, and what would have made a much more compelling and consistent story, would have been for Harry, struggling with the temptation to darkness, to be aided by the only other character to have faced that kind of darkness-- Snape." I was so hopping for this too. It would have transformed them both.

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

exactly. I think you misunderstand me a bit-- I do find the Snape of the first 6 books quite brave. I'm criticizing the characterization and logic flaws of the last book, where Jo doesn't seem to gave gotten just these points. Which is why I look to fanfiction to round out the series for me.

[margaram.livejournal.com]

I read that review and was compelled to send in a response because I disagree with her. As much as stories about people struggling with the darkness and overcoming temptation are nice and all asking for it out of a story is rather formulaic. I think Harry's story is not supposed to be about the struggle to redeem himself but to maintain his purity. Thats why I think Harry is an admirable character because throughout the series he shows a level of sacrifice and dedication in the name of good that we rarely get to see. And I think that it was his ability to stay pure that in the end made him able to defeat Voldemort whereas Snape and Dumbledore had faltered and were no longer pure but could redeem themselves by doing good.

It's more than just willingness to die in the book that is what makes Snape brave, it's what he died for. Snape could have easily sold out Harry on any occasion even to the minute of his death but he didn't just so that Harry would succeed. It's the fact that he learned what Voldemort and the deatheaters were really about and changed he then spent the next 17 years into fighting on the side of good. He puts himself through being a spy for Dumbledore and all the pain and danger that might encompass so that someone might one day destroy him. If anything he did it from his love of Lily Evans, not for fame or glory. I think his love for her was tragically sweet not stalkerish and the impetus for the realization of his true nature. Sure he was still a horrible jerk of a guy but he was capable of remorse and change and sacrfice for others (all when he didn't have to I mean his one love is already dead who's he trying to impress) and I think that's what makes him brave.

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

So Harry's a Galahad, then? Yeah, hadn't thought of that-- it makes sense. Though that's formulaic too-- just a different formula.

I agree with all your points about Snape and what he died for-- as I say in a response above, I do find Snape brave, despite my post title. I just find Jo's handling of the issue in Book 7 very inconsistent with the rest of the series in this regard. And a lot of what you're finding in Snape is either not stated in book 7, or it's explicitly undercut by what little is there. Given how brilliantly the redemption theme is set up for Snape in these books, it's puzzling how Jo throws that away.

[charizmatic.livejournal.com]

margaram I agree with everything u just said. Well put!

[lady-aidil.livejournal.com]

Truly impressive.I don`t think you really need this fireproof robes :)
Good points and plausible reasoning,however I`d like still think that Snape is the brave man but I understand your explanation, even maybe I`m able to slightly change my own way of thinking after this post.
Thank you!

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

I'd like to think he is, too-- I'm just pointing out it's hard to prove from book 7 and Jo's interview comments about him.

[rahirah]

I think you're playing games with the definition of 'brave' there. "Well, I've done X, and I don't think I was brave, so if Snape does Y which is sort of similar to X, he can't possibly be brave." I wish that there'd been a bit more focus on Snape while he was alive in DH, and some interaction with Harry, but Rowling does many things that seem odd to me, storywise.

I agree with the comment that that Harry, in Rowling's view, has nothing he needs to redeem himself for (he condemns Dumbledore's stumble with Grindelwald, saying youth is no excuse, while failing to make any connection to his own youthful hubris which contributed to Sirius's death.)

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

Not trying to, honestly. My point is more that what Jo's set up here in Book 7 is at odds with the rest of the series-- for an act to be brave, it has to more than Look brave-- the person has to have a choice, not be committing suicide or trying to assuage decades old guilt. I do find the Snape of earlier books brave, as I say in other replies through this thread. But her final handling of the matter undercuts a lot of it, and worse yet, her interviews to the time I wrote that post don't seem to recognize this fact.

[xlixia.livejournal.com]

It's taken me a little while to feel this way, but going against my fangirlish-nature (which is total drooling over Snape as a fascinating character, which = hot to a fangirl...) but...

I'm glad Rowling ended the book's interaction between Harry and Snape in the abrupt manner she did. I could infer through the epilogue that Harry had in fact come to terms with both the inherent good in Snape just as much as he'd come to peace with the occasional (okay, more than occasional) assholishness of his father and his father's friends - characters he'd come to almost worship as (and here's that word again) heroes. James and his crew were assholes, but I'd dare define them as heroes. Just as Snape, though self-serving, sacrificed his well being time and time again for "the greater good".

And Harry never getting to burry the hatchet with Snape? That happens to a lot of people in life. Which for me, made the scenario a little more believable - which was for me, the main reason I enjoyed the books - very believable characters.

[donutgirl.livejournal.com]

I agree completely -- in fact, I made some of the same points here (http://donutgirl.livejournal.com/414026.html?thread=2334794#t2334794).

[blueanddollsome.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think Rowling went a bit far in the redemptiveness of Snapes actions. He did the right thing, but really it was for the wrong reasons, IMO. Harry naming one of his sons after him, even if it is only a middle name, is a bit much. Whatever he did to help defeat Voldemort, Snape was still a bigot who delighted in bullying eleven year-olds.

Harry is never seriously tempted by the dark side, true. He's plagued by doubt and tempted to stray from the path set out for him by Dumbledore, to claim the Hallows for himself, to pursue power. Harry never went dark and returned, but he was tempted and succeeded in resisting temptation. It's true that Harry doesn't change dramatically, but he grows as a character, learning to deal with responsibility and to trust others.

[tinheart.livejournal.com]

Snape was still a bigot

Was he?

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

Snape as a bully-- yes, though I always thought he has so hard on them to prepare them for the war he knew was coming. Lots of room for interpretation there, of course-- again, leaving a lot of room for fanfiction to explore it all.

You're right about the temptation and resisting aspects for Harry, though that is so rushed in its presentation that it loses a lot of effect, for me, anyway.

[arkeus.livejournal.com]

Well, frankly, I am glad snape was redeemed "badly", as i couldn't have stood anymore of his presence than we already have :/

On the other hand, iagree with all your points, and will go even further in saying that his brave actions were mostly motivated by obssession and pride, and, for me, that annul the brave part of it.

What i really hated was that it was the fact that harry did not try to survive that made him so brave. If he had died, wouldn't that have made Vodlemort invincible? After all, the prophecy was something harry really believed in. So if he truly went expecting to die, without even trying to off nagini *or* finding another way, it would have made him a coward. Plus, i find that "suicide" is something that would weaken any type of magic, for the sole reason it's both cowardly (low power of determination) and against the usually acknowledged respect of life.

Sorry for my Ramblings :/

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

Not at all-- you've hit on the other thing that bothered me-- the idea that suicide is somehow brave. It takes a lot less courage than one would think, to hang on through a process that will End-- getting on with life and actually Living takes a great deal more bravery than that. Given earlier themes in these books, I was really surprised Jo took that shallow a direction with this last book.

[fishsanwitt]

Hey there :)

Thank *you* for friending me back.

I'm *not* a psychopath or weird (well, I *am* in theatre, so, take that for what it's worth!), but, other than that, I'm pretty normal.

We do share some common interests and I just like your writing style.

I'm a beta, so I don't post any stories - I just try to give constructive criticism to others, and I'm always interested in discussing concrit with like-minded individuals.

My husband (Jim) and I enjoy Harry Potter very much, although we haven't had a chance to see the latest movie and we have not read the final book yet. I'm in the middle of Book 4 right now.

I'm not a spoilerphobe though, so I don't worry if I accidentally hear or read something.

I think that's about it. I look forward to getting to know you as well :)

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

Cool. Well, once again, welcome. Not sure what you read of mine before coming over, but I'm honored to have you. Are you any good at titles? That's probably my biggest weakness, unless I steal from a quote that has some relevance to me and the story.

[fishsanwitt]

I *suck* at titles - totally no use there!