In which hobgoblinn contemplates excommunication...

[hobgoblinn]

and wonders if this is a Bad Thing.

Got a call from the Head Usher/ director of the Cathedral Foundation today. I'll call him Barry. He said during his meeting with the rector of our church, that the good Msgr. was very upset by the behavior of Wee Hobgoblinn during services. While I am singing, he is wandering around exploring, particularly at masses later in the weekend after he's already attended one or more.

The Msgr's solution to this problem? Talk to me before or after one of the myriad services I sing there every week? Call me directly and express concern for the boy's spiritual welfare? No. Tell Barry to call me tonight and decree that Wee Hob "Can only be in Church if he is supervised by a Family Member." His godfather does not count. Neither, therefore, do the many extended family members available through my membership in the choir and Anawim.

Do you know how many "Family Members" this boy has? One. Me. And he is only allowed in Church if I am sitting right next to him, and he is in the pew.

I haven't asked the obvious question yet-- "Or what?" but rest assured, I intend to, at my earliest opportunity.

Neither I nor Wee Hob's godfather, who called and got another version of this discussion from poor Barry, know quite what to make of this. Some months back, Wee Hob asked to train to be a server, which would give him something to do during masses and let him be helpful, which would certainly solve the boredom problem. At the time, this same Msgr. said no without giving any reason, even after Barry had made arrangements with me to bring him in on a Saturday afternoon to start the training. At the time, I figured he just didn't know Wee Hob well yet, and he wasn't making a good impression as a "serious, religious lad" (he's 12, remember) and I didn't make an issue of it.

Should he be wandering around in the back during services? No. I get that. In fact, the incident that seems to have precipitated all this happened Christmas morning, when I thought he was working as an usher. Some seminarian's cell phone came up missing and someone remembered seeing him wandering. He has his own cell phone, and I really doubt he went through people's stuff hanging back there. But wrong place, wrong time, I suppose. And they don't have the balls to accuse him of theft to his face, much less mine, so this is how they handle it instead.

I keep reminding myself how stunningly well the Institutional Church has been handling so many other things of late. And this particular representative of the fraternity is more troubled than most, locking the church gates from the garden to the main parking lot while CCD is still going on, just to keep the "homeless" people out of his backyard. Which means everyone has to walk clear around the block in this terribly dangerous neighborhood to get to their cars after CCD is over. Of course, the Church itself stays locked when services are not going on.

Sorry, had to vent. On the upside, I have to take Wee Hob to his godfather's Sunday afternoon for him to be there Monday, as I have to sing the Vigil masses both days and he's apparently Not Welcome. Which means I get to see Sweeney Todd Sunday night after mass, while Wee Hob has an elsewhere to be. And his godfather spent a long while over here today helping him organize his room and talking to him about life.

Still, if I could pull it off, I would love to emulate my icon and bitch slap an Ordained One. Seriously.

Am I going to hell, do you think?

Comments

[gileswench.livejournal.com]

If anyone's going to Hell, it isn't you and it isn't Wee Hob, I can tell you that.

This man may be an ordained priest, but he's a sad excuse for a man of God.

In your shoes, I'd at least be starting to ask around about a different church to attend. I wouldn't trust this man to save anyone's soul.

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

meant to thank you for the support. But I have an even more ulterior motive for seeking you out-- is it just me, or have some seriously batshit crazy people begun to infiltrate the GRB?

or maybe I'm just in a mood....

[rainkatt.livejournal.com]

Am I going to hell, do you think?

Well, I highly doubt it, but I suspect I'm not the Right Sort to be saying that, being a Recovering Preacher's Kid Who's Now Sort of a Pagan Solitary, being completely fed up with the "organized" part of "organized religion."

The whole thing sounds very much as though someone's too lazy to deal with things, and I think a bitch slap wouldn't be amiss.

In any case, hugs to you and general growls in the direction of the Msgr.

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

Way to go - make a kid feel unwelcome in church. If the adult loses the cellphone of course the kid stole it. What a christian attitude. I'm feeling warm and fuzzy all over.

He is attending multiple services and sitting through at least one, which is amazing for a 12 yr old. Some kind of compromise could be found. By reasonable people, at least.

Or you could look for another church. Bitch slap is needed regardless.

PS - You and Wee Hob are not the ones going to hell.

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

My experience is that priests have little or no hands-on experience with kids of any age. I've known a couple that were naturals (the ones that people referred to as Father What-a-Waste), but 90% of them do not understand kids at all (including some of those teaching in Catholic schools, oy). This priest sounds like he is clueless and insensitive when it comes to wee ones in general and Wee Hob in particular; if I were you, I'd try to find a compromise that allows him to attend one service a week with his godfather (perhaps if you point out that you won't be able to sing in the choir otherwise) and try to find alternate activities for him during the other times you have to be at Mass to sing. If I'd had to attend more than one Mass a week as a kid, there would have been some serious rebellion on the horizon.

Alternatively, I'd go with what everyone else is saying and find another church, since the last few lines of your entry make me think this is part of a trend. Another place might let him train as a server as well.

[father-turtle.livejournal.com]

Though few men of God like to be reminded that they're not living according to Scripture, I would encourage you to tell the head usher that if the Msgr has a problem with you/Wee Hob, then he should abide by Matthew 18 and approach you himself. You might want to be a little more tactful than I'm suggesting, but the truth is, he should be speaking to you himself, not hiding behind the head elder.

If head elder has a problem with this, then there's a bigger problem--namely, that the leadership of your church isn't behaving in a godly manner towards the people.

And if you're truly worried about excommunication, I'm not positive how it works in Catholicism, but you're only supposed to be able to be excommunicated Scripturally for living in unrepentant sin--again, according to Matthew 18. Wandering around the sanctuary and narthex area may be . . . problematic, but it is not unrepentant sin.

And since when is ANYONE excluded from church for any reason? Even the excommunicated are welcome and encouraged to attend worship, even if they aren't allowed to receive the sacrament(s).

I'm not Catholic, but I am clergy. If you have any questions, I'll see what I can do.

Oh . . . and as for bitch slapping the Ordained One? It wouldn't be the first time--nor, likely, the last time--it happened to clergy. Some more deserved than others.

This might merit a letter to the Bishop/Archbishop. (I don't remember which is above a Msgr.)

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

I'm not really worried about excommunication, though if they take music away from me, it might amount to the same thing. At the moment, that's the only time I feel vaguely close to God these days, except for when I'm pissed off at Him. Sad, but there you are.

I'm a convert, and an amateur historian/ medievalist (how I got drawn to the Catholic Church in the first place), so I have a pretty decent grasp on canon law/ history, and a protestant's healthy skepticism about the holiness and infallibility of Ordained Ones, so that's a plus. One of the things that bugs me about the current Diocesan climate (and makes my reaction to all this more volatile) is that the bishop and a number of his Minions seem to want to revert worship to some 1950's ideal that never existed in reality anyway (or if it did, spawned all manner of evils because people who should have been paying attention were off living in some kind of religious fantasy world) and the handling of this situation is just another example. Thanks for pointing me to Matt. 18, though. And if my meeting with the Ordained One does not end satisfactorily, I think you know me well enough by now to know that a letter to the Bishop, or his superior if it comes to it, is something well within my capabilities. Watch this space. And thanks.

[fishsanwitt]

Wow. That *seriously* sucks.

[nemaihne.livejournal.com]

Oh no! Some of the clergy in the tri-state do have a rather high opinion of themselves, which is unfortunate. I'm not Catholic, but some of my friends were and I remember some of the parishes being really weird. :( I say shop around, there are huge differences even within the Catholic churches.

[clavally.livejournal.com]

This is why things get nailed to church doors....and why I'm Lutheran now instead of Catholic.

*grumbles on your behalf*

I agree with all that was said before me. I don't really have anything to add it, except my support and hopes that you find an agreeable solution for yourself and Wee Hob...screw any agreeableness for the Msgr. Ahem.

If you go to hell for it, I'll save you a nice spot in the shade!

*hugs*

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

I'm a church musician-- I'm Already going to hell. I'll save you a seat by the fire. Bring the marshmallows.

[gillo]

Good lord. How can the man be so unchristian? Is he actively trying to reduce his congregation and scare people away from the Church? Seems to me you should contact his bishop on behalf of the congregation, not just on this one issue. (And way to go with the timing, holy monsignior - season of peace and goodwill and all that.)

This is horrible for you, especially as you give so much to your church. I just hope a little Christian spirit and botherly love seeps into the jerk clergyman some time soon.

{{hugs}}

[usedtobeljs]

I echo what others have said -- the priest is not serving his calling at all.

I'm sorry that you and WeeHob have to deal with this. Good thoughts for a resolution.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

IMO, 12 year olds (especially boys) are prone to boredom and the church should be a lot more understanding of its younger members.

[whitestar-alpha.livejournal.com]

Don't even get me started on organized religion!

Oh and seriously, who on Earth gave you the idea you'd go to Hell for wanting to bitch slap someone?

[emelye-miller.livejournal.com]

I'm with the guy who mentioned Matthew 18. Anyone who claims to understand scripture has major balls to tell anyone their child should be excluded from worship. Frankly, I would think a more Godly response would be to find an outlet for the kid rather than trying to make him (at 12, for heaven's sake!) sit through more than one mass without anything to occupy him. Is there a Sunday school class he could attend during one of the services?

Some of what you're talking about reminds me of a situation at another church my husband and I attended for a time. If the people there are truly so willing to believe the worst of everyone there, then I would suggest attending at another church. The body of Christ is meant to build up one another - not tear itself apart from the inside.

Not being Catholic myself, I can't completely sympathize with your position, though I understand how placing apostolic authority in the figure of the church itself could contribute to a hesitancy to voice your concerns, however, I would humbly suggest that what your priest is suggesting is no more representative of the views of the Church than they are scriptural. Francis of Assisi certainly didn't get sainted for that kind of attitude!

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

I'm a convert, so I'm not at all intimidated by Ordained Ones. And yeah, you're right about St. Francis.

I had kind of drifted away from the Choir to cut down on the time Wee Hob would have to be bored, but I went back a few weeks ago in support for friends and family after K's death, and because they kind of needed me anyway. I'm going to make an appointment and see what we can work out directly with His Holiness or whatever. But he's not running us off. I was there First, damn it. And the way the position of Rector at the Cathedral Basilica changes (3 times in 5 years) I will probably be there long after he's been sent out to Maysville KY or some equally lovely backwater.